ALASKA NATIVES COMMISSION
JOINT FEDERAL-STATE COMMISSION
ON
POLICIES AND PROGRAMS AFFECTING
ALASKA NATIVES
4000 Old Seward Highway, Suite 100
Anchorage,
Alaska 99503
TABLE OF CONTENTS
Witness List | PDF
Version
PROCEEDINGS
(On record at 9:53 a.m.)
(Tape #1.)
COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. I'm Morris Thompson, and with me this morning is John Shively; and John and I are members of the Economic Task Force for the Alaska Natives Commission; and this morning we'd like to start the hearing by welcoming J. Wayne Erickson, who's a safety engineer and author; and he's with Erickson's Adventures. Please go ahead.
MR. ERICKSON: Thank you. I don't know if -- are these needed, or are we trying to use them or. . .
REPORTER: You can use them; they go straight
to my machine.
MR. ERICKSON: Okay. My card says I am a safety engineer and that I am an author. I've spent most of my life as a mining engineer. I was just sent a -- I just had the pleasure of visiting with Buddy Lang. Back five years ago, Buddy and I were responsible for the underground mine training program at the -- in Juneau for the Greens Creek Mine.
It was there that I became more hands-on associated with the Native problems, if you will. And what I'm here today to do is to present an outline for a solution of the problems that you folks have already defined -- a portion of the solution. There's no one solution to all of the problems; but there are steps that I think that can be taken that would be very positive in creating an economic base that would allow some of the social problems and educational problems to be addressed.
Before -- I do want to touch just a little bit on the problems and the background, because if you're trying to define a route to where you're going, you have to know where you are. And before you can de -- tell where you are, you have to understand where you've been; and it is this line of thinking that I am very encouraged and excited about the Native situation and the talk I hear about the preserving of the Native heritage, all of the good things of the past that should be brought forth -- forward.
I also see within the discussion that I've heard, there is - - the real recognition that you have to have an economic base. Training and education are fine; but only if they will take you onward. To give an education and stop at that point without the opportunity to advance it, is sometimes more detrimental than it is beneficial.
At the University of Juneau, we set up our Underground Mine Training Program, and we did it with the intent of having a time for the opening of the Greens Creek Mine. They were going to be employing some 350 people. At that time, there was only 12 registered underground EBSHA (ph.) people in the state of Alaska -- EBSHA. (ph.) being Mine Safety and Health Agency. There was only 12 of us that were certified as being underground miners in the whole state. They were going to employ over 300 people at the Greens Creek, so we set up the school to train, so that when they graduated they could be a labor pool available to go to work at the Greens Creek Mine.
We set it up in two semesters. The -- everything worked right according to schedule; the mine was -- reached a new development stage; the ferry was built to transport the people; and everything was dead set to go; and then the bureaucracy got into a fight between the Coast Guard, environmental-quality people, and so forth, about who had jurisdiction over building a dock to bake the ferry to take the people out to the mine. This fight lasted for almost four months and delayed the opening of the mine by that extent.
I bring this up, because it demonstrates a point I want to make. We had a young gentleman in our class that had looked to this opportunity to work at Greens Creek as a lifetime opportunity -- something that he dreamt about all the time. They didn't hire him, simply because of the lack of the ferry.
We set the second semester of classes; we put another 150 people out. The young man realized it would be a long time before he was hired; he became depressed; he committed suicide. I counted that as a failure of our system. We were doing something for the people; but then we were slamming the door in their face and not allowing them to go ahead.
Now the Native corporations have, with your world, the last major mineral resource undeveloped areas that exist. We have a -- pressures on the outside world to eliminate mining from all federal grounds. They no longer want miners on any federal grounds. The only place that mining can then take place is on private-ownership grounds. And the Native corporations own the largest single block of mineral potential ground in the -- North America.
There are two reasons why it has not been developed to the extent that it could be, to the benefit of the regional corporations and the local Native corporations. One is the division that exists between the Native villages and the regional corporations. You have a gap -- a wide gap that exists in communication, economic incentives, and so forth, between the two that prohibits -- it doesn't prohibit, but it obstructs the development of our mineral resources.
On the other side of it, we've had to depend upon Outside mining companies to come in and to develop the resources of Alaska; and, frankly, they don't really care about the Native problem. They're not here to address the problems of the Native corporations; they're not here to address the social problems, the educational problems, the rest of it. They're here for the bottom line only, and that's to make money. They put a lot of advertisements out, a lot of publicity out that they're -- they -- of all of their great social consciences that they have.
But, in truth, what they are is a legal entity that lives by the law. They will do what the law says that they have to do, and they do it. They're not law breakers; they live by the law. That law can be represented by the contracts that come from the Native corporations to them; but that contract that they have has to address the problems that you as a Native corp -- people have. If you don't address those problems at that level, at that contract level, before you ever start, you'll never resolve the -- you'll never address; you'll never begin to resolve the issues that are there.
So the first thing that you have to do, if you're even thinking about developing your mineral resources, is to try to point out to the regional and the Native village corporations -- and this idea is not mine; this is one that has come through talking with people from AFN, and talking to Native corporate officers, and geologists, and all of this -- is to set up a program that works with the Native villages that educates them on the advantages and the disadvantages of mineral development on their land; so that they know what they're getting into; they know what they can expect; they know what they can demand of the contract with the company that mines it; or they can set up their own mining company to mine it. But it has to be a defined thing; it has to be a step thing that you address these problems, so that when you end up with a mined-out piece of property, it is not only the taxes that you may have collected during the mining process, or the jobs that you may have (indiscernible), but you will have created an asset that when a mine leaves is still an asset for that village that's there. And these people can look at something that will go on forever.
It's not just the life of the mine that
we're talking about; we're talking about all the way through;
but the only way you can incorporate this is if you do it at
the very beginning. It has to start at the beginning; and it
has to start at the local level; and it has to start with an
understanding of what the mining process is. But when that
is attained, then you sit down and you negotiate with whoever's
going to mine it, whether it's a regional corporation, whether
it's an Outside corporation. And you make sure that you get
the things that you need and want, to make that Native village
proper and continue on with addressing the problems that exist;
whether they’re water; whether they’re sewage; whether they're
education.
But it all has to begin by addressing first he Natives, second your mining company, then you can go into your training program, and then you can go through the prospect -- the process of exploration, developing, and mining.
The way it can begin is a study is needed to do such things as evaluate Red Dog. Red Dog is a classic -- one of the very few classic cases you've gotten, where you've had a successful corporate entity come in, and develop a mine, and has worked with the Natives to create jobs and other particular benefits.
But I think it's pretty well recognized within the industry and within the Native community that there was perhaps much more that could have been done that was not done. And I believe that. The Red Dog people are good people; Cominco is good people; but they do not have the incentive to try to develop a program that is really meaningful for the Natives. They did what they were required to do by law and by contract. They've done some very good things; and you should know that; and you should be able to lay that on the table for your villages and say:
"Okay, this is what you stand to gain by development
here. Here are some of the problems that could have been avoided; here are
some of the advantages that could have been realized; and this is how you
proceed."
So the whole program has to begin with an in-depth study of Red Dog and one or two other examples that exist around the state, to define the package that you want to sit down and talk to the Native corporations, and the villages -- the village council: if you will; and from that council -- from those meetings, you evolve a program that is meaningful that you can present to the mining companies; and, from there, you go ahead.
Then you set up your training program. If you do that,
you have cooperations such as from the Bureau of Mines. T.S. Areas (ph.)
is a -- director of the Bureau of Mines. He’s also a Native -- an Oklahoma Native. He would to see a training program established to aid the Natives in this mining process; but to set up a mining training program without the mines is tantamount to disaster, again, as we’ve
already experienced; and we don't want to do that.
So you have to have a place to begin; and I say the place to begin is with Red Dog. The second step is the council meetings with the Natives. And the third step is with the corporate entities.
This is how I see the evolutionary process and development
of the mineral resources of the Native corporations in Alaska. It can be
a major step in the re -- into the resolving of not only the economic problems,
but the social problems if done right.
COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr.
Erickson. I was remiss when we started the hearing. Father Sebesta, you’re one of the Commissioners, and Frank are more that welcome to join us if they’d like. They’re
both Commission members as well. Mr. Erickson, thank you for your comments.
John, did you have any thoughts or comments?
MR. SHIVELY: Well, you know, maybe a couple, since I was
sort of involved in Red Dog. I mean, one of the things to keep in mind about
Red Dog that’s different than mo -- what most Native corporations faced is
that when we negotiated with
Cominco, we knew what was at Red Dog. We -- Cominco had
done the exploration; they drilled; and we a -- basically knew the size of
the ore body and how rich the ore was. Most Native corporations are either
going to have to spend a substantial amount of money which, to find something
like Red Dog, is basically millions of dollars in exploration on their own;
or they will have to find a mining company to come in and do that, and it
is going to be much more difficult to negotiate some of the kinds of requirements
we have on Red Dog, when the mining industry doesn't know what they’ve gotten.
I -- on the other hand, I happen to agree, as does NANA,
that the development of mines does offer opportunity. We are presently carrying
out now, on our own, additional exploration on our lands; and we have actually
bought a number of mining claims ourselves in the area that, although we’re
not actually operating right now, we have the potential to operate. And,
of course -- I mean, Red Dog is at one end of the scale of what a mine is;
and it's at the big end.
MR. ERICKSON: Yes.
MR. SHIVELY: And there won't -- you know, to find even one more Red Dog in any of our lifetimes in this state would be difficult and maybe unlikely. But it i -- it doe -- the development of mineral resources does -- I think, does offer some possibilities; and I appreciate your comments on it.
MR. ERICKSON: The process can begin with the exploration.
Thinking back to the early days of uranium boom in the Lower 48, we did exploration
work on ranchers' ground, many of them where they didn't own the mineral
rights; and so you’d go to the rancher, and you'd say:
"Hey, we want to do this exploration work."
And they would like to run us off, because they got no economic benefit out of it, much as your villages do. So we'd sit down with them and say:
"Okay, we want to do it in this area. What can
we do -- how can we do it that would be beneficial to you?"
And we did such things as build roads into it that they could not build themselves,
because it was an Forest Service ground. We did such things as drill water
wells. The -- actually exploration wells; but we'd blow them out, set 'em
up, and clean 'em, so they'd have a water well.
But we worked with the people from the very beginning
on how we could make it fit their needs. As the property developed, then
you can get into bigger and bigger issues, and bigger and bigger things;
but the point is that it had to begin at the beginning. You don' t go in
there and just run over people, and do the exploration, and ignore the local
needs. You certainly can't do that here in Alaska. You can’t do that with
the Native corporations, and it's just got to begin at the beginning is all
I'm saying.
COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: Mr. Erickson, just a comment, and maybe
not a question. And I can't testify for other regions; but within our region
-- and let me just say I think we are slightly different in that we have twelve
and a half million acres of entitlement -- we have a lot of the regional corporate
land sufficiently separate from villages' lands; and we don't. -- I don't believe,
and I hope, we don't have some of the urban -- I'm sorry, the regional village
conflicts that you alluded to in your comments. But, obviously, we -- even we
have to be sensitive to local needs and desires as we go forward to develop.
And then publicly want to compliment John and the NANA folks on what they've
done. As he mentioned himself, they have a unique circumstance there, but they've
still done an outstanding job with job training, and
the one nice thing, obviously, about mineral development,
someone has to start; and you use that as the base;
and you improve, hopefully, as we go forward. So --
MR. ERICKSON: Exactly. And please do not
take what I said as any kind of a knocking of NANA
Corporation, because what you've done is outstanding.
You've taken a giant step forward; and all I'm
saying is that now use it to advance the
cause in other areas as well. It would be rare if you
reached
the ultimate point of success the first time you tried
something; but it can certainly be used, as was our training
program in Juneau. It was a good, successful training
program; but it was still just the first step; and it
could be
improved upon; and the approach was right; the approach
or
NANA Corporation has been proven right, and that's why
you
want it as a model to present and work with through the
Native
Alaska community.
I cannot over-express the -- my relief that the
mineral potential for mine development in Alaska or in
North America is the greatest possible thing that you could
have as far as the Native corporations is concerned. One
square mile of land put into an underground mine -- or have
an
underground mine put on it -- will represent more man hours
of
labor, more work, more economic contribution than any other
way that you could ever put on that ground. Even if it was
the State Capitol Building, I think you would probably still be competitive with the economic benefits and the man hours that -- from one square piece -- one square mile of ground.
The -- if you look at the disturbed area of Greens Creek, and of the Red Dog Mine, and Prudhoe Bay; if you took and you build ten Prudhoe Bays, and you build 50 Greens Creek and Red Dog Mine, you'd have an area of 100,000 acres -- ten times the city parks of Anchorage is what you would have. The total disturbance within the state would be minuscule; but it could make an economic base that this state could run on forever.
COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: Any other questions of Mr. -- we are beginning to now get some people who have testified -- want to testify, so, John?
MR. SHIVELY: Yeah; just one more comment. I -- you know, I'm always amused when I talk to people in the development community these days who think that the Native lands are sort of the solution to the economic problems of the state, since when back in the late Sixties and early Seventies, as Morris will recall, when the Natives were fighting for the Settlement Act, it was the people in the mining industry and the Chamber of Commerce who were our biggest enemies. And the fact that they have, in essence, cut off their nose to spite their face by keeping the amount of Native land down in the state, as opposed to promoting it back in the Sixties and Seventies, is not lost on some of us.
MR. ERICKSON: I can appreciate that. It's a point well taken; but we're talking about here, as I see it, is ultimately you have Natives developing mineral resources, on Native land, with Native money. That's the ultimate objective.
COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: And it's -- if I may, it’s capital
importation, rather than capital exportation.
MR. ERICKSON: Exactly, exactly. And it's people. You're keeping your people -- you're doing something constructive for your people. The -- there -- I know of no other opportunity like that that you've got.
COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: Okay, Any other questions for Mr. Erickson? If not, we thank you for appearing before us.
MR. ERICKSON: I thank you for the opportunity to do so.
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