ALASKA NATIVES COMMISSION
JOINT FEDERAL-STATE COMMISSION
ON
POLICIES AND PROGRAMS AFFECTING
ALASKA NATIVES
4000 Old Seward Highway, Suite 100
Anchorage,
Alaska 99503
TABLE OF CONTENTS
Witness List | PDF
Version
(On the record)
THE REPORTER: On record.
TESTIMONY OF MARK E. ANGASAN
My name is Mark Angasan. I'm from King Salmon. I'm a commercial fisherman and on the village council. I ain't too used to public speaking, so...but --
MR. IRWIN: We're not really used to public hearings so....
MR. ANGASAN: Okay. Good. But I have two things
I want to talk to you about today. And I appreciate the fact
for letting me speak to you. One is the abuse that is going
back home, you know, with the military and the federal employees
hunting on our lands. The military flies in these people from
all over the state and the Lower 48 free of charge, military
hops. They're provided housing, they're provided the transportation,
they have about a hundred three-wheelers on base in King Salmon.
They're provided skiffs to go out and go fishing. They're provided
free -- a butcher shop.
One example of the abuse that's going on is -- like caribou. You go out there in my front yard, and you see all these people hunting, competing for the same food that I use to live on, and I'm paying taxes so that they could do this to me. That's not fair. It's happening to all of us back home.
And it isn't just limited to the caribou and the moose and the ducks, the birds. It's -- fish -- it's happening to the land. And it isn't fair, because I'm paying my taxes so they could come in here and do this to me. You don't see me going down there in their front yard doing this. I mean, it would've been put to a stop long ago. I had to put signs around my house on a Native allotment to keep these people off, because they were hunting in my yard. I mean, you'd hear bullets whizzing by.
And the politics of it is, you know, if it was mentioned to the base commander, is, well, you know, we'll shut down the facilities to the public, such as the bowling alley, the gym, the movie theater. And it needs to be addressed. It's been ongoing. The abuse -- I'm telling you, they have a dump on base that you go out there and you find 50 animals, you know; with just maybe a few legs gone, or the head gone, you know, for the horns.
I use that food to live, as do everybody else back home. And like I said, you know, it's -- they fly in on these jets free of charge from around the state, from the Lower 48, by the jet planeloads. I know last week there was two jets that came in with nothing but hunters. And if it's happening where I'm at, I could only imagine about all the other places that's affected by this, that taxpayers are paying for them to do this.
I ain't just talking about the taxes, I'm talking about me as a Native also, you know. I have respect for the....and I'm just glad that I'm sitting here being able to tell somebody about it.
If there's any questions that you --
MR. IRWIN: Yeah, before you get any further. This is, again, a real new one for us as far as issues that we've heard about. If l could try and get this straight. You're saying -- did you say military and other federal employees?
MR. ANGASAN: Yeah, they could fly up for nothing.
MR. IRWIN: And the federal government pays for this?
MR. ANGASAN: Well, they're catching a military hop.
MR. IRWIN: Oh, I see, they catch a --
MR. ANGASAN: Free of charge.
MR. IRWIN: -- military hope free of charge. And how are they able to hunt locally? Do -- are they able to get hunting licenses or --
MR. ANGASAN: Oh, they purchase their license.
MR. IRWIN: They just come in to King Salmon, purchase a hunting license, and then just go out hunting?
MR. ANGASAN: Yeah.
MR. IRWIN: Even if they're from the Lower 48?
MR. ANGASAN: That's right.
MR. IRWIN: I thought there was some law against that.
MR. ANGASAN: No.
MR. IRWIN: There isn't? You have to pay out-of-state fee, anyway? Okay, so you have to pay a higher fee anyway, for this thing.
MR. ANGASAN: But even still, the abuse is going on.
MR. IRWIN: Yeah. I'm just trying to see how this happens.
MR. ANGASAN: And like I said, you know, people back home, we're competing against these people for our food supply. And they take it as sport. And they shoot all these animals. And you find animals out in the field with just the head gone or maybe a couple legs missing.
MR. IRWIN: And what about Fish and Game; do they know about that?
MR. ANGASAN: Fish and Game is a -they're there. And I -- they haven't really shown me much about dealing with the problem. It seems to me that the only time they deal with the situation is when it becomes a conservation problem.
MR. IRWIN: Mm-hm (affirmative).
MR. ANGASAN: I mean, how far does the abuse have to go before someone puts a halt to it?
FATHER ELLIOTT: As evidence on this, I think would be very helpful, if you're able to do it; you mentioned, for example, the dump with animals with just the heads missing and so on. If you could get us photographic evidence, it would go a long way to preventing this problem. Otherwise -- and I'm saying this very kindly -- it's your word.
MR. ANGASAN: Sure. Sure.
FATHER ELLIOTT: But if you could get us photographic evidence, especially photographic, it would be of great help --
MR. ANGASAN: Okay.
FATHER ELLIOTT: -- to this Commission to --
MR. ANGASAN: Good enough.
FATHER ELLIOTT: -- take steps in that area.
MR. ANGASAN: All I ask is that someone check into this, you know, because it's been brought up in years past and nothing has been done. You could go behind my house out in the tundra and find animals. It isn't just limited to on the base stockpile. You know, it's out happening out in the field too.
FATHER ELLIOTT: Mm-hm (affirmative). Mm-hm (affirmative).
MR. ANGASAN: And like I said, you know, myself as being a taxpayer, I'm paying them -- I'm paying for their way to come out to do this to me.
FATHER ELLIOTT: Now, are these animals also hunted or perhaps in addition to the others, by persons stationed at the Air Force --
MR. ANGASAN: I'm sure it happens there, yes, sir. There's a lot of abuse. You'd really have to see it with your own eyes.
MR. IRWIN: I guess another question, now, I realize that if somebody is going on a trophy hunt with a sport guide, there are certain regulations and I know that there are certain ways that -- proper disposal of meat, if all they're after is a trophy and that type of thing. But it sounds like what you're saying is somebody's under a personal sports hunting license, is actually doing trophy hunting in some instances, rather than actually going out to get the meat; which I thought, when you're sports hunting, it's still -- you're supposed to utilize the meat, you're not doing a trophy hunt.
MR. ANGASAN: It happens.
MR. IRWIN: But am I correct, that when you're sports hunting, you're also supposed to use the meat and stuff?
MR. ANGASAN: Oh, yeah. I mean --
MR. IRWIN: So what you're describing is actually trophy hunting, in a lot of instances, anyway, where somebody would only take the head, I mean, that's all they're interested in.
MR. ANGASAN: I've never been trophy hunting. I've never brought home a pair of horns in my life.
MR. IRWIN: Right.
MR. ANGASAN: I don't think they taste too good. But I guess.
MR. IRWIN: That seems to be some of the -- what the people are doing. And again, I ask, where's Fish and Game on this, if somebody is actually doing --you know, just going out there and taking the animal?
MR. ANGASAN: I couldn't really tell you. You know, like I said, it's been an ongoing problem. And like, you know, I said, the -- seem like the only time that they step in is when there's a conservation problem. But speaking as a Native from King Salmon, I don't feel right that I'm paying for them to come in here and do this to me and my people.
FATHER ELLIOTT: Mark, the military have recreation sites, for example, at Seward.
MR. ANGASAN: Uh-huh (affirmative).
FATHER ELLIOTT: Is King Salmon then also used as a recreation site for hunting and fishing for the military, in a similar way that Seward is for fishing?
MR. ANGASAN: I guess so. I do know that the military used to have a NCO camp and a officers camp on Naknek Lake. And that was really abused. And there's no longer no campsites like that anymore.
FATHER ELLIOTT: Mm-hm (affirmative).
MR. ANGASAN: Because of what I had just stated. I mean, it seemed like they got out of that and got into this over here.
FATHER ELLIOTT: Well, what I'm asking then is that, are people -- do -- military people, I'll just stick to that, flown in to hunt and fish?
MR. ANGASAN: Yes. Yes, they are. And it's not just around my area. It goes down -- it affects other villages, like South Naknek, Naknek, clean up into Branch (ph.) River, that I know of personally. And like I said, if it happens here to my community, where I live, I could only imagine the abuse that is going on amongst other communities throughout the state.
MR. IRWIN: I mean, I won't say that you guys are in a unique position, but you guys certainly live in a unique area as far as, you know, the abundance of fish and wildlife; and for the people who are non-Native and who don't look at the resources as you might, you know, the -- this is a real -- this is the place to come if you want to go hunting and fishing. And I -- and then with having the military base right in the middle of it all, I think that does put you guys in somewhat of a unique situation. That's not to say it's right by any means.
Is this something that who would we address this to? Would we address it to Department of Military, or what -- Department of Defense? Would we -- would it be local -- the local commander in Alaska?
MR. ANGASAN: I know locally, it doesn't go very far. Like I said, I know how politics works in a community, you know. You don't let me do this, well, you ain't going to do that over there. I think it needs to go beyond that. It needs to be addressed up here, you know.
MR. IRWIN: I guess what I would --
MR. ANGASAN: And have the message --
MR. IRWIN: I guess the question I'm asking is, and you might not know the answer to this, but somewhere it seems like the word is getting out that, hey, this is a great place to go, and you can jump a military hop and get over here and do some good hunting. Is this something that's happening in Anchorage or back in D.C., or --
MR. ANGASAN: I don't know. But I do know we are well known over there --
MR. IRWIN: Right. It --
MR. ANGASAN: -- as far as being --
MR. IRWIN: -- sounds like it, yeah.
FATHER ELLIOTT: Mark, what -- you said something about the station commander, I'll use that.
MR. ANGASAN: Uh-huh (affirmative).
FATHER ELLIOTT: Sort of saying, well, if you won't let us hunt and so on, we will deny you privileges to use the bowling alley and that. What facilities do you -- do the civilians of King Salmon use that would be called military recreational things, or whatever?
MR. ANGASAN: Well, like on base, they have a bowling alley and a gymnasium and a movie theater. Because we don't have nothing else like that, you know.
FATHER ELLIOTT: So you use those?
MR. ANGASAN: People do. I don't. I haven't been on the base since I got out of the Army (laughter) ten years ago.
MR. IRWIN: But it is something that --
MR. ANGASAN: Yes.
MR. IRWIN: -- community members do --
MR. ANGASAN: Yes.
MR. IRWIN: -- like to have access to.
MR. ANGASAN: Uh-huh (affirmative).
MR. IRWIN: And so it is something the military sees as being able to kind of -- the stick they can hold over you.
MR. ANGASAN: Well, you know, it hasn't been said, but the thought is there --
MR. IRWIN: Yeah.
MR. ANGASAN: -- you know what I'm saying?
MR. IRWIN: Yeah.
FATHER ELLIOTT: Okay.
MR. ANGASAN: And it happens all over, you know. I mean, the -- they even go down the chain. I mean, they're all over. You know, I used to be a G.I. You know, I know. But this, this is happening in my yard. It's got to stop.
MR. IRWIN: I guess that would be another question, is like -- I guess it gets back to Fish and Game again too, is there -- you know, where they set the appropriate places to be hunting.
MR. ANGASAN: I don't know what --
MR. IRWIN: I guess if your Native allotment
is right in --
MR. ANGASAN: I don't know what they do. I really don't --
MR. IRWIN: -- the middle of it.
MR. ANGASAN: -- know what they do.
MR. IRWIN: It sounds like they don't do a whole heck of a lot.
MR. ANGASAN: But --
FATHER ELLIOTT: Now, if there were not this waste of game, if they were to take the whole animal, would you have objections to that; or is your main objection the fact that they are wasting the caribou --
MR. ANGASAN: Well --
FATHER ELLIOTT: -- and the moose?
MR. IRWIN: But they're in your yard hunting --
MR. ANGASAN: -- you know, one --
MR. IRWIN: -- it sounds like.
MR. ANGASAN: There's a lot of problems that I see, you know. Like the people on base, you know. You get a couple of caribou, I want to see them eat that piece of meat every day until it's gone. I know that ain't happening. I mean, that's being realistic. And they're competing against my food supply, as my neighbors and their neighbors.
FATHER ELLIOTT: So what I'm getting at is, you are not objecting to their hunting the caribou and the moose, provided that they make full use of it as you would do. But I see your objection being the waste.
MR. ANGASAN: That's part of it. And the other part is like I said, I'm a taxpayer. And I'm paying taxes to have this plane come in with a load full of hunters, competing against the same food supply that I use to exist on, that they consider sport. I don't agree with that.
MR. IRWIN: And not -now, I heard you mention as well, not just the taxpayer money being used for transportation, but you said that they also provided meat cutting and --
MR. ANGASAN: Yeah, they have a butcher shop on base.
MR. IRWIN: -- packaging facilities? For that purpose?
MR. ANGASAN: Yeah.
FATHER ELLIOTT: When you say your taxes pay for their transportation, are you saying they come in on military transport?
MR. IRWIN: Right.
MR. ANGASAN: Yes,
FATHER ELLIOTT: Okay, thank you.
MR. IRWIN: What other -- just so I have it all down, we have transportation, we have a butcher shop on base; is there any other --
MR. ANGASAN: They're provided three-wheelers, four wheelers. They're provided skiffs, outboards, fishing tackle, a place to stay. There's a hotel on base. The only thing I don't know is if they provide them the weapon. That's being truthful, too.
MR. IRWIN: Well.,..
MR. ANGASAN: But I -- you know, I hope that somebody look's into this, I really, sincerely hope someone really checks into it, because like I said, it's been ongoing. I mean, where do we finally draw the line and say, enough is enough? You know, and I agree, I live in a unique area, and I want to preserve it, not only for me but for my kids and his kids and, you know, for everybody. It shouldn't happen.
FATHER ELLIOTT: Mark, if you would send to the Commission then, you and -- or your friends could get photographic evidence --
MR. ANGASAN: Sure, I'll do --
FATHER ELLIOTT: -- it would be --
MR. ANGASAN: -- whatever I can to show you.
FATHER ELLIOTT: Thank you,
MR. IRWIN: The other thing I'll do too is, Mark, we're not necessarily any kind of an advocacy agency. Our charge is more to gather information and then to make recommendations back to Congress and the Governor. But in the course of our information gathering, I write letters all the time on concerns like this, and I will do that when I get back, is I will find the appropriate authority to send a letter to, to just say that we've -- you know, we -- we'd like to know the situation with respect to provision of these kinds of services to military personnel, under what authority, that type of thing. And our -- and not to say that, in fact, it will lead to any kind of closure as far as the problem goes, but at least it'll alert them to the fact that we know about this, that we're interested in finding more our about it, and that -- and we will, we'll get their viewpoints on it as well.
And in the meantime, as Father Elliott had suggested, if you could get us more information.
MR. ANGASAN: Okay, sure.
MR. IRWIN: I'll give you my card.
FATHER ELLIOTT: Off record.
THE REPORTER: Off record.
(Off the record - tape changed - Tape 11)
(On the record)
THE REPORTER: On record.
MR. ANGASAN: The other issue that I want to talk to you about today was the limited entry fisheries permits. I've been a fisherman ever since I learned to walk. I've been on the beach with my mom, drug me down there, put me in the mud, let me sit there. But, you know, my whole living is derived from fishing. I have a family to support. And one of the problems that I have is, you know, if I become sick, I could medical transfer my permit one time, and after that if I'm still sick, my only alternative is to sell my permit or not utilize it, which is going to have an effect on me and my family.
And I don't think that's right, because we hear people say, well, don't sell your permit, that's all you have. Well, people are being forced out to sell, because that's -- they have no way of providing income. I mean, the economics in these villages just isn't there, I mean, if that's all you got, that's all you have.
And, you know, I became sick a few years ago. I had some major surgery. I almost died. And -- but I went out there and I went fishing, because I knew that if I didn't do it, I'm without and my family's going to suffer. So what I'm saying is that I think that, you know, people should be given the opportunity to medical transfer their permits without -- I mean, you know, if they have a problem, it shouldn't be just limited to one year. Who's going to say you're going to just stay sick for one year. I mean, where does it say that in the medical books, that you're illness is only going to last for one year? I -- it's just unreal. And it affects everybody that's a commercial fisherman.
You go up these rivers, I mean, there's been people, you know, that's been forced out. There's been people in my village that's been forced out because of this. And I don't want it to happen to me or my neighbors. You know, I -- what I plan on doing is I want to fish my whole life to the best of my ability, but if I get sick, then I want to be able to still support my family, given a medical transfer. That's still bringing in income, there's nothing wrong with that, It's better than going on welfare. I've never taken out a handout in my life.
FATHER ELLIOTT: Now, by medical transfer, Mark, do you mean a temporary transfer to another person but the income would go both to them and to you?
MR. ANGASAN: Yeah.
FATHER ELLIOTT: Mm-hm (affirmative).
MR. ANGASAN: And I'll still retain that permit.
FATHER ELLIOTT: But you'd retain your permit?
MR. ANGASAN: Yeah, it'll come back to me. And see, if the next year goes on that I'm well and fit to go fishing, then I can go fishing. That's --
MR. IRWIN: And you said a one time -- did you mean one year, it's a one-time, one-year?
MR. ANGASAN: Yes. You know, say a -- like in my position, I had a tumor. And fishing came up. I could only use that excuse one time; and you can't get another --
MR. IRWIN: For now --
MR. ANGASAN: Yeah.
MR. IRWIN: -- between now and the rest of your life, you'll never be able to do that again, is what you're saying?
MR. ANGASAN: No.
MR. IRWIN: Okay. I do know that there's a bill trying to be passed where -- it's for 65 years or older, you know, that it would be willing -- the bill says something about, you know, that they will be able to transfer their permit, medical transfer, at least some -- you know; but it's -- it shouldn't be just limited to that, you know. Like I said, there -- what's going to happen to me, or this guy or that guy over there? Because all I do is fish.
Thank you.
FATHER ELLIOTT: Thank you, Mark.
MR. IRWIN: Thank you, Mark.
FATHER ELLIOTT: Do you have any questions?
MR. IRWIN: Not at this time.
FATHER ELLIOTT: Thank you very much.
MR. ANGASAN: Thank you.
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