ALASKA NATIVES COMMISSION
JOINT FEDERAL-STATE COMMISSION
ON
POLICIES AND PROGRAMS AFFECTING
ALASKA NATIVES
4000 Old Seward Highway, Suite 100
Anchorage,
Alaska 99503
TABLE OF CONTENTS
Witness List | Exhibit
List
| PDF Version
Economic Issues: Group B
COMMISSIONER BOYKO: Thank you, welcome to our session.
Before we get to Group B, I would also like to introduce to this
meeting another member of the Commission who has joined us.
Father Sebesta, are you in the audience? Welcome to the meeting,
and when a segment comes up that you are personally interested
in by virtue of your participation in the task force, I wish
you would come up and join us. I have already invited Father
Elliott to participate in the Governance section. I do believe
you are in the Health task force; and if that's agreeable with
you, I would love to have you come up here and join us when that
comes up.
All right, Group B, please come forward and be
recognized. Would you gentlemen be kind enough to introduce yourselves?
MR.
MOORE: My name is Gary Moore. I'm a Economic Development Specialist
with Tanana Chiefs Conference.
MR. RUTLEDGE: I'm Ed Rutledge,
Director of Planning and Development with Tanana Chiefs.
MR.
MADROS: I'm Pat Madros, commercial fisherman.
RECORDER: Excuse
me, gentlemen, you really don't have to move that around, because
that's only the microphone that comes into
my equipment; and the one in the center is actually the amplified
mike; so you're fine just how you are.
COMMISSIONER THOMPSON:
So got to use the one in the center.
COMMISSIONER BOYKO: Okay,
since it's the one in the center, we'll start with the gentleman
in the center, if it's okay with everybody.
MR. RUTLEDGE: I'd
like to change the order of presentation if I can and allow Gary
Moore to go first, myself to go second,
and Pat Madros third.
COMMISSIONER BOYKO: All right, that's fine.
MR.
RUTLEDGE: Thank you.
COMMISSIONER BOYKO: Please do.
MR. MOORE: As I
stated, my name is Gary Moore, and I'd like to thank the Commission
for this opportunity to speak on economic
issues particularly in the Interior Region, which is together
with the Tanana Chiefs Conference Region. Myself and Ed Rutledge
has prepared a testimony together, which I will read the first
half of the section; and Ed will conclude with the final version.
I will highlight some of the economic issues and concerns to
the Interior Region of Alaska, and Ed will highlight on some
of the possible solutions or ideas on how to address some of
those concerns.
(TESTIMONY OF GARY MOORE ATTACHED AS EXHIBIT
#5)
COMMISSIONER BOYKO: Okay, thank you, Mr. Moore. Mr. Rutledge?
MR. RUTLEDGE: As a non-Native, I think it's important for me to establish
some credibility for speaking before this Commission.
COMMISSIONER BOYKO: Not to me, but go ahead.
MR.
RUTLEDGE: Over the past 15 years, I've worked for a variety of
for-profit and non-profit organizations, serving Native Alaskans.
Worked for the Community Enterprise Development Corporation out
of Anchorage in the late Seventies; the Arctic Slope Regional
Corporation in Barrow in the early Eighties; and, for over five
years now, have been with Tanana Chiefs. It's my observations
during my travels throughout Alaska, with the exception of Southeast,
I haven't spent much time there; but elsewhere throughout Alaska,
there's a -- consistently over this period, I've observed [original
document is illegible] --
(TESTIMONY OF RUTLEDGE ATTACHED AS EXHIBIT
#[6])
COMMISSIONER BOYKO: Thank you. Mr. Madros?
MR.
MADROS: Mr. Boyko, because I was brought in here to testify on
the fisheries, and I'm only allowed five minutes, if I do
go over five minutes, will you please stop me, because I figured
out the amount of money --
COMMISSIONER BOYKO: I haven't stopped
any of the others. I'm not going to pick on you. (Laughter)
MR.
MADROS: I figure for the amount of money it took to bring me
in here and for five minutes, I’m running -- my value
is about $88 a minute; and if I speak over five minutes, I'll
probably devalue myself; so stop me at five minutes. (Laughter)
I was brought in to talk about the commercial fisheries in the
Interior, and mostly in the YAAAA (ph.) Region. I process eggs,
and I'm a commercial fisherman; and I'm also a subsistence fisherman;
so I can speak from all three. Basically, in the years -- the
fish board has constantly
cut back on our fishing time in YAAAA (ph.); and so our money
from the fisheries has been constantly been reduced. Three years
ago in YAAAA (ph.), I estimated about $600,000 was brought into
the fisheries into YAAAA (ph.). This last season, which ended
yesterday, we had four 24-hourperiods the whole summer, commercially.
I
figured -- and I'm being conservative -- $300,000 to $400,000
was brought into the economy; and you're talking from below Anvik,
all the way up to Bishop Mountain,
which is about 300-some miles of the river. You're talking, basically,
about six or seven communities that are involved here; and about
70-somepermit holders. So it -- I think, on an average, I just
barely figured out, it's about four to five thousand dollars
per permit holder is all that that family made at commercial
fishing; but it's the mainstay; and right now, with the economy
out there, with no fire fighting, which a lot of the other people
go to do, our economy out there is basically hurting; and the
state will feel the impact later on this winter, when there's
money that's going to be screamed for from social services, to
suicide' to everything else. It will be filled. So, I don't feel
sorry for the Third World countries, because I think in our Interior,
we are a Third World country. We are treated like that. The
Fish Board have refused to do their business as the State to
regulate us properly. Last year alone they handed to the Interior
fish process -- Interior fishermen, and said:
"Here, you take care of your own business."
And,
basically, they ran away. They didn't give them no money or no
kind of means to do this; and so they didn't do none of
the things to regulate the river in a decent manner; and I think
the Interior is going to hurt on this. I didn't have time to
put all the numbers together; because I just got off the plane
last night; and I didn't have time to go through this, so I'm
just talking --
COMMISSIONER BOYKO: Feel free to submit them
later. This record will stay open for a long time.
MR. MADROS: As a processor, in order to develop a viable business, I have
to be open more than four days out, of a year; and it
takes a minimum of fifty to a hundred thousand dollars to develop
a small processing plant such as mine; and it was foolish of
me to spend $50,000 of my money to develop a processing plant
four years ago to run four days out of a year. It was not a worthwhile
investment, if you look at it from economics. And for me as a
processor to develop farther, no bank in the world is going to
loan me thirty-five to forty thousand dollars that I'm going
to need to improve my services to the community for a four-day
fishing season. So, as a processor, I'm hamstrung, because of
the Fish Board refusing to do their business; and economically,
to get a one pound of processed product out of my camp right
now costs me, from my camp to Anchorage, costs approximately
$1.25. That's processed. That's not counting what I have to pay
for it, or what it costs me to process it; so by the time I get
anything out of my processing camp down there, it's already cost
me approximately $7 if you figure out the labor, the amount of
money I put into it; so I guess what I need to do, or what we
need to do, if there's going to be any kind of improvement in
the fisheries commercially -- and above board, I' ll say above
board -- is we're going to have either a subsidization in transportation
or we're going to have to have the health boar -- the DEC lenient
on some of their ways. Right now, we have a lot of people I know
of that are selling salmon strips who process it in unregulated
smokehouses and sell it on the black market. And they are making
money; but, of course, they're not paying taxes on it, or they're
not responsible for basically poisoning people, if botulism,
or whatever, happen to be on their product; and so they're getting
away with it.
So, it's a -- commercial processors such as me
who are hamstrung with all these obligations and yet I have no
sign of money in
the years to come to help me out. And one of the biggest things
with fisheries in Interior is that it's going to be a viable
renewable resource. If it's going to be a viable renewable resource
as a commercial processor, I'm going to have to be helped substantially
economically, or subsidized one way or the other for me to continue
to do this,
because I cannot -- and a few of the processor cannot
afford to keep running a processing plant in a commercial fisheries
that is not happening, for four days out of a year.
COMMISSIONER BOYKO: Thank you, sir. Morrie?
COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: I think
in -- for the sake of time, I'll pass for now.
COMMISSIONER MASEK:
Well, I just had a few questions directed to you, Pat. In regards
to trying to get other means of money,
or some help, have you tried locating, or tried maybe to get
some help from the regional corporation, or from the non -- like
Tanana Chiefs? Is there any moneys available to help?
MR. MADROS: Other than right out state grants to help me improve, there is
no money available. I went to Key Bank, NBA, and First
Interstate, and I've talked to them before, and they said:
"Oh, yeah, you're in the fisheries. How
are you doing?"
"Very well."
"How long do you fish?"
"Four days out of a year."
"Get out of here."
They ain't going to invest, because they look at
12 monthly payments -- every month -- for the money that they are going to
invest in me; and if fishing is the only thing I have to do,
there's no
way I can get 12 months out of four days of fishing.
COMMISSIONER MASEK: And I have a question for Ed in regard to a need for a
jobs. Has there been any programs available
from
Tanana Chiefs that can be brought out to the villagers and
means of economic needs?
MR. RUTLEDGE: Our emphasis --
COMMISSIONER MASEK:
And what do you think should be done?
MR. RUTLEDGE: Okay. Our
emphasis right now is really in tribal development. We're trying
to, I guess, breathe new life into
the tribal governments, with the hope that once we are able
to develop some administrative capacity within the tribal governments,
that they will be able to form some tribal-owned enterprises
and employ additional people within the communities.
COMMISSIONER
MASEK: Okay, and you’re mentioning the harvest
of the salmon. What kind of issues is Tanana Chiefs taking
up on this the harvest of the salmon; and have you considering
maybe
focusing on getting a lobby or someone who can help the fisheries,
help your people out with this problem?
MR. RUTLEDGE: We've
tried a couple different things here. For one, we're actively
involved in the formation of the Yukon
River Drainage Fisheries Association; and this past year,
when the
chum cap was raised for False Pass, we were very actively
involved in the petition-gathering process to try to counter
that. Unfortunately,
both moves at this point have been unsuccessful; and the
Yukon River Fisheries is declining its resource base.
COMMISSIONER
MASEK: Okay. And I have one quick question for Gary. In regards
to the unemployment, why do you think this
rate is
so high in the villages? Is there anything -- do you have
any comments on that? Why do you think it's so high? I
know you're
in the planning and development part of TCC.
MR. MOORE: Yes, one of my specific duties with Tanana Chiefs since the
beginning of this year, as an Economic Development
Specialist, is to find ways to develop employment opportunities
for rural residents at their location; and it is quite
a challenge, including many of the obstacles that we've
mentioned
today.
And some of the suggestions as to relieve some of the
problems.
One of the big factors getting in the way of development
in economics is -- just one example is the cost of
transportation. The unemployment
figures, the reasons they are so high is there is just
no permanent employment opportunities available in
the villages.
COMMISSIONER
MASEK: Well, do you think Tanana Chiefs can -- or maybe even
the regional corporation, can start
some
incentives
towards making the villages more economically, depending
on theirself
in the village, such as creating maybe small businesses,
where the people can be busy, and working, and doing
something?
MR. MOORE: Yes, that's one of our concerns
and objectives is to definitely try and develop on-site job
opportunities in
those rural communities so residents don't have to
leave their community
to obtain year-round employment. As far as the regional
corporation's efforts to do that, I'm not completely
aware. Morris would
probably be more appropriate to address that. But
as far as Tanana Chiefs
Conference, the Tanana Chiefs Conference is attempting
to strategically develop job opportunities in the
villages; and there are currently
grants that were being submitted by Tanana Chiefs
Conference in different departments that establishes at least
one position
in each of the Native villages served by Tanana Chiefs
Conference. And, as time goes on, we are focusing
on
trying to keep jobs
in the villages, as compared to developing new jobs
in the central office, or else in the sub-regional
offices.
We'd
like to get
and develop more of those in the actual villages
that we are serving, so that we start to address those rural
concerns.
COMMISSIONER MASEK: And have you looked
back previously in the last ten years, if there were some programs
that were
available, can you give us a report of maybe which
programs were working,
and which didn't work, and maybe you can use those
studies so
that you don't fall into the same situation where
the program does not work, and you don't waste
your time
using that
same program again?
MR. MOORE: I haven't really
done any research into --
COMMISSIONER MASEK: Okay.
MR. MOORE: -- going back
ten years or so; but, certainly, if we were made -- brought
to the
attention of successful
programs
that
would work for our situation, certainly
would like to see them.
COMMISSIONER MASEK: Thank you.
COMMISSIONER BOYKO:
Following up on Beverly' s question, now this is particularly
directed
at
Ed Rutledge,
there were some
excellent points made about ways and
means of stimulating employment in rural Alaska,
but I
keep hearing government,
government, government,
government -- federal, state, local,
tribal.
What is wrong with the private-sector
part of the Native community rolling
up its
sleeve and
pitching
in? And
I haven't heard
any response that -- Beverly asked
about regional corporations, about
Tanana Chiefs, what is their ability
to generate funds, and to generate
economic pump priming,
as distinguished
from
government, which obviously is shrinking
and retrenching, and you're not
going to get anything them for the
foreseeable future?
MR. RUTLEDGE: I think any job expansion
in rural communities basically boils
down to
individual people, and the
skills those people have to either
be self-employed or be employed
in an
organization, or a government, or
whatever, and
to create the new jobs to the
expansions of whatever entity they're
working for. I think the major benefit
that Tanana
Chiefs can
provide would
be in assisting
people and acquiring educations that
will allow them to take business
skills, and
either vocational
or
culturally relevant
skills, and return to the villages.
So much of the education
seems to result in urban employment,
rather than rural employment. I think
Tanana Chiefs
can be
of particular
benefit in encouraging
students to receive education that
they can take back to
their villages.
COMMISSIONER BOYKO:
And what form will that assistance
take?
MR. RUTLEDGE: Well, we offer
scholarships, grants. We have for years. That's
no different today
than it was.
Encouraging
people
to make life choices is difficult.
Individual people have to come
to their own conclusion
for what they
want to do
with
their life. Hopefully, to Tanana
Chiefs being in the news, presenting
the issues in TCC's perspective,
people
who are choosing to go to school,
will see the
need,
will have learned
of the need
to
take their skills back to the
communities.
COMMISSIONER BOYKO: In an earlier
panel, I suggested that there
might be economic
incentives
created,
like total
or partial
forgiveness of student loans,
or some other economic incentives
to obtain
commitments for graduates to
go
back to their own communities.
Have you
given any
thought
to that?
MR. RUTLEDGE: I haven't.
COMMISSIONER BOYKO: One
last thing. Both Ed Rutledge and
Mr. Madros
raised the
specter of the intercept
fisheries and what's
going on in the various
areas in the Interior that are
being limited
to,
and discriminated
against,
for the
benefit
of
such areas as False Pass
Intercept Fishery, a large percentage
of which goes to out-of-state
large
fishing vessels.
And my question to you
is; Is there anything that we
as a Commission
could
recommend to put an end
to this?
I saw the decision that
came out of --
I believe it was in the
Superior Court in Home, where the
judge said that
what
the
Fisheries
Board was
doing amounted
to a
form of economic genocide;
but he then played Pontius
Pilate
and said:
"But I can't do anything about it,"
which
absolutely makes we wonder why we even have -judges sitting
there when they said that. But is there anything we can do to
reverse that trend?
I understand, for instance, that at False
Pass they can fish seven days a week and 24 hours a day; and
in Region M, for
instance, it's four days a week and only six hours. Anything
that you would
recommend that we put into our recommendation on that issue?
MR. RUTLEDGE: Well, I would recommend that the
cap for the incidental catch of chum be lowered. I would recommend
that
the Fish and
Game be encouraged to do substantial research along the
Yukon River to genetically identify those stocks of fish, and
once
the stocks are identifiable genetically, to sample catches
in ail intercept fisheries; and if the number of salmon
being intercepted
is so great that it will not sustain the commercial and
subsistence fisheries along the Yukon, that the intercept fishery
be
shut down until that run is past.
COMMISSIONER BOYKO: But
isn't it a fact, though, that like, for instance, the current
season, the Fisheries Board adjusted
the
various allocations between these areas without really
any scientific study, just based on political considerations?
And how do you
deal with that?
MR. MADROS: Well, it's just like the fish
-- the biologists over here at the U -- on College Road. They
changed their
fishing scenario three different times from the first
of January 'til we went
to fish the Fifth of July, on the same data they had in November,
Now how can you run a fisheries when the biologists can't even
agree to how they're going to fish it, or how they're going to
run a river?
COMMISSIONER BOYKO: The flip side of that is that
when you go into court, or when you appeal to higher authority,
they say:
"Well, these are the experts. We have to
listen to them."
Obviously, the experts don't know what the heck
they're doing.
MR. MADROS: Obviously, they've never ran the river
in a very viable way economically or to get a sustained yield
from fisheries.
I've also been involved with the Yukon River Negotiations Agreement
-- I mean Commission between Canada and the United States on
the Yukon River, and I've seen them give one set of information to
the Canadian group and then turn around to the Fish Board three
or four months later, give a different scenario; and so they're
not even giving the same scenario to the same entities. And I'm
sitting there listening to them, and I confronted numerous individuals
on this and says:
"Why are you giving two different sets of
figures?"
And I was actually removed from the board when
the new governor got in, because I was too vocal. I didn't want
to come to where
we're coming to now; and the fish is there. The fish were there
this year; but because the biologists over there refuse to come
out and look at the fisheries while it’s happening, they
kept us shut down. And so if you're talking about government,
my first reaction to all this is probably to shut off the game
biologists' budget and just have nobody over there, and maybe
we can come
to an agreement we had way before we were a state, where everybody
fished and had consideration for everybody else up and down the
river.
COMMISSIONER BOYKO: Okay. Anybody else wishing
to be heard on economic planning and development? If not, we'll
-- or did
you
have any questions that you saved?
COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: No,
I don't.
COMMISSIONER BOYKO: Okay. If not, we'll shut this
segment down.
RECORDER: May I have copies of your presentation?
MR. MADROS: (Inaudible response.)
RECORDER: Oh,
great. Thanks a lot.
This document was ocr scanned. We have made every
attempt to keep the online document the same as the original,
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